I had a lovely brief chat with the wonderful Hamish Macdonald on ABC Sydney Radio 702 before the ABC Compass program “Reclaiming Pride” was aired. Listen below or read the transcript.  In the transcript you’ll find urls embedded if you want to dig deeper into those topics.

Transcript:

[Hamish Macdonald] This is 702 ABC Sydney. Mornings with Hamish Macdonald. G’day there, it is Friday the 27th of March, it’s Hamish here.

It is great to be back on the tools. Hope you’re having a good Friday morning so far. We’re keeping an eye on the wild weather for you right across Sydney this morning.

A bit chilly for the first time in a while. We’ll have an update for you on what to expect during the program. Right now it’s snowing in the New South Wales Alps.

Getting texts as well saying it’s snowing in Orange. A lovely picture from Spring Hill just south of Orange a short time ago. What’s it like where you are? 1300 222 702.

So listen, there’s a really interesting episode of Compass coming up this weekend. It’s called Reclaiming Pride.

It focuses on Anthony Venn-Brown. He’s a former Pentecostal preacher who struggled with his sexuality as a young man and underwent conversion therapy. He’s coming out and subsequent religious activism has helped reform laws banning gay conversion therapy.

Anthony Venn-Brown is here in the studio with me this morning. A very good morning to you. You must feel a bit nervous about the Compass episode coming out, do you?

[Anthony Venn-Brown] You know, it’s always a thing that you don’t know what ends up on the cutting room floor, but I do trust Noel Debein, the producer, that he did a great job, yes.

[Hamish Macdonald] Wonderful man Noel Debein. We love talking to him here on 702. For those who don’t know your story, in a snapshot, explain please.

[Anthony Venn-Brown] So I was born in 1951, so I’m three-quarters of a century old. And of course, at that time when I was growing up and realised that I was attracted to guys, it was illegal. Mental health professionals were doing very cruel, barbaric things to try and cure gay people. And then I turned to God, thinking that God was going to fix everything for me.

[Hamish Macdonald] So this situation in your life brought you to God?

[Anthony Venn-Brown] Yes. It was my homosexuality that brought me to God. Of course, I thought, well, I’ve been trying to change and nothing was working. So I thought, well, God could do something. Surely I should try that. And I did for 22 years.

[Hamish Macdonald] And did it work?

[Anthony Venn-Brown] I’m still gay.

[Hamish Macdonald] I mean, it’s beautiful to see the way you can laugh about it now, but that must mask a hell of a lot of pain.

[Anthony Venn-Brown] There were very traumatic times, Hamish, and some very dark times, because when you’re living with that inner conflict constantly, it can lead to depression and thoughts of suicide as well, because, you’re trying your best to change things. And of course, since I came to God, not only was it a crime and everything, but now it was a sin. And also it meant that I would not get eternal life unless I changed.

That’s what I was told.

[Hamish Macdonald] Did you genuinely believe it was possible to change?

[Anthony Venn-Brown] Yes, I did. Because there were people out there saying that this was possible.

And why would you ever want to be gay? Because you end up a lonely, desperate, bitter-twisted old person and gay relationships don’t last.

[Hamish Macdonald] And what did conversion therapy involve? I guess it’s a term we hear about a bit. But I suppose for many of us, we kind of have no concept of what actually happens.

[Anthony Venn-Brown] Well, fundamentally, Hamish, it’s based on the false premise that something is wrong with you, something’s happened to you to make you gay, and that that can be changed through reparative therapy, talk therapy. So there’s a whole variety of approaches. Sometimes it involves exorcisms.

For me, it was a residential program, which was very much working on ensuring that I was only doing gender-specific tasks, like anything outside the house I could do, nothing inside the house. So no cleaning, no washing. But I learned to change a spark plug in a combi van.

[Hamish Macdonald] Did you ever feel like it was working?

[Anthony Venn-Brown]  Oh, yes, because there’s suppression. And you could suppress and suppress and suppress, which is very unhealthy. And there are times when temptation might come, and I was strong enough to resist the temptation. When that wasn’t working, I thought that, well, maybe I don’t have enough faith. Maybe I’m not trying hard enough. Maybe I need to pray hard enough. So it was a constant inner battle that I was facing. And of course, not something you could talk to anyone about.

[Hamish Macdonald] Did you ever talk to God about it?

[Anthony Venn-Brown] Daily. Regularly. I did two 40-day fasts to try, you know, to just to be really intense about that and show how serious I was about changing. Of course, you know, I wanted to preach. I wanted to serve God.

And I knew that this was a barrier to me doing that. So I tried everything.

[Hamish Macdonald] Because you did become a Pentecostal preacher, didn’t you?

[Anthony Venn-Brown] I became a very well-known Pentecostal preacher, yeah. I used to preach to all the bigger churches like Hillsong around Australia. So, yeah, preaching up to 5,000 on a weekend.

[Hamish Macdonald] Did that add to your sense of shame?

[Anthony Venn-Brown] I know that some people might feel that this was very hypocritical of me. But for me, as long as I was fighting it, as long as I wasn’t wanting it, I felt, well, everybody’s got sin in their life, you know.

So mine just seems to be worse than everybody else’s. So I was trying very hard, Hamish, to change.

[Hamish Macdonald] Anthony Venn-Brown is here. The episode of Compass is called Reclaiming Pride. Did other people around you know?

[Anthony Venn-Brown] I kept it a secret. There have been Pentecostal preachers who have gone around the world, like a guy called Sy Rogers saying, I was once gay, I’m now straight. For me, I would have called myself a closet ex-gay.

[Hamish Macdonald] Explain that.

[Anthony Venn-Brown] It sort of felt like when I’d left, I’ve left the gay life, being gay, I’m now married, I’ve had children. So with those things around me, the impression was, he’s okay. But nobody knew about my past, really. There was shame attached to it. So I didn’t talk to anyone about it. And also, very importantly, I knew that I was not completely “free”.

[Hamish Macdonald] It’s almost been two years since New South Wales moved to ban conversion practices. What do you think other states in the country could learn from what’s happened here in New South Wales?

[Anthony Venn-Brown] Well, I think that they need to think very carefully and prepare. We did a lot of consultation here in New South Wales, and it was individual consultation, so we were not debating or fighting with other people. And then the government collected all that information.

That was really good. But the big thing is about survivors, like myself. There are thousands of us who have told our stories, and our stories are very, very powerful.

And they’re painful, and they’re traumatic, and most people don’t know about them. So, you know, telling our stories is a very powerful way to create awareness and bring change.

[Hamish Macdonald] Is it still happening much?

[Anthony Venn-Brown] Yes. But it’s not something that is being advertised or promoted. But let’s say, for example, you’re a 15-year-old kid in a Pentecostal or Evangelical church. If you go to your youth pastor or leader in the church and say, I think I might be gay, then they will say to you, well, that’s not really what God wants, and we’re going to pray with you, and we’re going to help you. And there’s a special ministry in the church which prays for these sorts of things. So, you know, it’s not something that is out there in the public space.

There were organisations which we worked to close down. But now, you know, it’s because the belief’s not changed. The law doesn’t change people’s beliefs.

But it should be a huge wake-up call to them that we’re living in the 21st century.

[Hamish Macdonald] We often talk about the harm that social media can do to young people, for young people. But I imagine for the sorts of young people you’re describing, maybe social media might offer an outlet.

[Anthony Venn-Brown] Well, yes, because, you know, there are people out there like myself who are telling our stories, and we can connect. We have a private Facebook group for survivors of conversion therapy in Australia and New Zealand. You know, it’s a space, safe space, a private space.

So, in 2000, Hamish, I founded a group, a Yahoo group, which most people don’t know what that is. And I had 400 people in there. That was the beginning of me learning more about the harm that’s been caused by these beliefs and by practices.

[Hamish Macdonald] Anthony Venn-Brown, it’s been lovely chatting to you this morning. Thanks for being so generous.

[Anthony Venn-Brown] And thank you for having me, Hamish.

[Hamish Macdonald] Anthony Venn-Brown there. He’s an advocate, a former Pentecostal preacher, and founder and CEO of Ambassadors and Bridge Builders International. You can catch his episode of Compass, Reclaiming Pride, this Sunday.

Anthony is also the author of the bestseller A Life of Unlearning – a preacher’s struggle with his homosexuality, church, and faith.