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On Wednesday, 25 March, I joined Sally Sara on ABC Radio National for her Changing Australia segment.

At the end, Sally mentions the upcoming Compass program, Reclaiming Pride. You can watch the program HERE. 

TRANSCRIPT

Sally Sara
It’s time for changing Australia. And for years, Anthony Venn-Brown sought solace in his Pentecostal faith, preaching sermons in mega-churches around the country.

Anthony Venn-Brown
God is making sure that we will be relevant to this generation. We’re not into religion. We’re into Jesus.

Sally Sara
That’s Anthony Venn-Brown previously, but Anthony hid a struggle with his sexuality, suffering through exorcisms and conversion therapy to correct what he thought was wrong. After 22 years, he resigned from the ministry to live openly as a gay man and become an advocate for banning conversion practices. Now, Anthony is a CEO of Ambassadors and Bridge Builders International, and is my guest this morning on Changing Australia. Anthony Venn-Brown, welcome.

Anthony Venn-Brown
Thank you. Sally crocs, no judgment.

Sally Sara
I will be judged eventually. For those I’m sure,

Anthony, I’m wondering, what’s it like? We just played a brief clip of you preaching some years ago. What’s it like for you when you hear yourself back in a very different time in your life?

Anthony Venn-Brown
It wasn’t all bad Sally. And you know, I have lots of fond memories as well. But of course, you know, my life has changed quite dramatically, and one of the biggest changes is that I’m no longer in that terrible internal conflict that was going on for decades in my life. I’m very much at peace with who I am.

Sally Sara
Anthony, what was that like for you when you were, you know, front and centre very publicly, not only a member of the Pentecostal church, but preaching to others? And yet, in your more private thoughts, there was this big struggle in your mind about who you were, what was right, what was wrong, your identity. What was that like for you?

Anthony Venn-Brown
Well, I’m sure a lot of people would see that as complete hypocrisy. But what was happening for me and many people in this situation is you fight, but it’s a secret battle. It’s not something you tell anyone else about. There are others which will proclaim themselves as no longer, no longer being gay, ex-gays or whatever, and but for me, I kept that all a secret, so it was a very secret struggle. And the thing that changed it all for me, of course, was when I fell in love with a man, and that’s when I couldn’t preach anymore, because all that time leading up to that, I didn’t want it. I hated it, I fought it, and now it wasn’t about sex; it was about love. And that changed everything.

Sally Sara
When you hear the word shame, how do you reflect on that in that period of time for your life and what you were feeling?

Anthony Venn-Brown
It was constant because, you know, if you’re heterosexual, what you do is think about the opposite sex That’s happening all the time. If  you’re same-sex oriented, then you know you see an attractive person. And you know that there are all these things attached to that. So every time I had one of those thoughts or experiences or feelings, shame would come immediately, like a flood, to the point you know that if ever I express that or entered into anything that, then afterwards, there were these terrible periods of self loathing and self hatred, which can lead, of course, to depression and thoughts of suicide.

Sally Sara
This wasn’t just a journey for you. You also had a wife and family. What did this mean for them?

Anthony Venn-Brown
Me coming out was the most traumatic experience, I think that any of us have had, you know, because I did a public confession in front of hundreds of people in a congregation, saying I’d committed adultery and asking their forgiveness for what I’d done to them and to the church and to God and everything else. And so, you know, this period after that was was incredibly traumatic. PTSD is something that has been a part of my life from that experience today. You know, I have my two beautiful daughters, who I turned three quarters of a century a couple of weeks ago, and my daughters were there and spoke, and they are just amazing and supportive and allies and everything. So we’re very fortunate, I think, because not everybody ends up in this place, you know, where you can resolve things and be happy with your life.

Sally Sara
You founded Ambassadors and Bridge Builders International to help create understanding and acceptance. What kind of work does this organisation do?

Anthony Venn-Brown
Well, what I realised very quickly Sally was having come from that situation. Being a Pentecostal preacher and leader, I knew one thing ,that people will not respond to, was being condemned or an aggressive approach, or, you know, any, any of those things. So what I have attempted to do is take a more ambassadorial type approach, so representing my tribe, my lovely LGBTQ tribe, and reaching out to people to engage them in conversation, in dialog, I do training in churches and with Christian organizations, all because I always see Sally. The real enemy is ignorance. That’s what the enemy is. And sometimes we focus our energies on attacking individuals or organizations when we really need to get down to the problem. At Ambassadors and Bridge Builders International, that’s our focus.

Sally Sara
You’re listening to Changing Australia on Radio National breakfast. My guest is Anthony Venn-Brown. Anthony, what’s the situation across Australia with what’s known as conversion therapy and the legality of that

Anthony Venn-Brown
Now we have several states which have already legislated against it at various degrees, and we have Tasmania, and there’s West Australia and the Northern Territory, which haven’t moved in that direction yet, we’re waiting for them to catch up. So, you know, it has been such a wake up call for people within Pentecostal /Evangelical churches to realise we are living in the 21st century. You know, to say that people who are LGBTQ are broken or need healing or can change or should never act on their thoughts or feelings. This just doesn’t work anymore. 50 years ago, you know, in 1973 the American Psychiatric Association took homosexuality off the list of mental disorders, so that the message, very much to them from the legislation is, hey, it’s time to catch up and to LGBTQ people within those faith contexts. It’s a reminder; no, you’re okay. You’re not broken; you are loved,

Sally Sara
Anthony, thank you so much for being my guest this morning, it’s been lovely to talk to you. , thank you. Anthony Venn-Brown is the founding CEO of Ambassadors and Bridge Builders International, and author of A Life of Unlearning .One of the text messages that just said his story should be a film. Well, you can hear more about his story and see more on the Compass program this Sunday at 6:30pm on ABC TV and anytime on iView. If you need any assistance, you can call lifeline. 13, 1114,