LGBTQ PEOPLE OF FAITH
Giving them visibility and a place at the table
Background:
In 2004, I had my first book launch. It was upstairs at the Midnight Shift Nightclub with about 350 people attending. The majority of those people had never been to a gay venue previously. It was a very exciting evening……all those people……but something was missing.
Invitations had been sent by my publisher, but there were no LGBTQ community leaders, no gay press to cover the event, and no mention of the autobiography in the weeks that followed. Had I incorrectly assumed the significance of what was happening? That a former high-profile Pentecostal preacher had come out as gay and told his story. Also, it was also the first Australian conversion “therapy” survivor story to be told. A current day equivalent would be one of Brian Houston’s Hillsong pastors coming out publicly or one of Brian’s children. These would definitely be media events of significance.
The problem:
I found out later that the lack of interest, even avoidance, was a strong anti-religion feeling that existed in the community. I was unaware, not only of its existence, but also of its prevalence. Since that time, I’ve learned that the anti-religion attitude is historic. At the first pride march in New York, and also the first Mardi Gras in Sydney, LGBTQ of faith, had to fight for a place in the parades. The resistance to their presence was strong and hostile. Imagine that? Rejected by your religious community and then to experience hostile resistance from those you considered your new family – your tribe. I came to realise that I was going to have to battle against these reactions for some time, and still do today from time to time.
Of course, the anti-religion feeling is completely justified. Every time the LGBTQ community has worked towards ending discrimination and creating equality, where has the opposition come from? It came from conservative Christians and politically aligned churches. It is completely understandable why people would not want to have anything to do with religion, and that they would see it as the enemy.
The narrative that the church is anti-gay is well established in the media. In most cases, bad news stories about religion are highlighted, whether that be conversion “therapy”, or the religious discrimination bill, as a couple of examples. We’ve also had to use those stories of harm and tragedy to create awareness and lobby for protection. In order to do this, there is a price to be paid very few would know of. Whilst there is a lot of truth in what has been mentioned, the prevailing narrative is not the full story.
In essence, the LGBTQ community and religious conservatives have been preaching the same message: You can’t be gay and a Christian/Muslim/Jew/etc. These two things are mutually exclusive.
Outcomes of the anti-gay/enemy narrative
- Firstly, what impact does this have on LGBTQ people whose faith is important to them? It can be like constantly living in a war zone and ducking bullets from both sides. Do they feel safe coming out about their faith in the LGBTQ community, or does their faith become another unhealthy closet of fear and a false sense of shame?
- It also affects families where religion is very important. They are being fed a narrative that the LGBTQ community is against everything they stand for. I’ve often wondered how much this contributed to the 38% of Australians who voted NO on the marriage equality postal survey.
- What about the young person in a religious home who is coming to terms with being LGBTQ? Is this contributing to the belief that one day they will have to choose one or the other?
THE SOLUTION: Creating visibility and a place at the table for LGBTQ people of faith
No one can change the narrative except us. We can begin to change the narrative by promoting good stories about LGBTQ people of faith. We can increase the visibility of LGBTQ people of faith and ensuring that, along with other groups in our community, they are seen as valued members and have a place at the table.
THE BENEFITS OF VISIBILITY OF LGBTQ PEOPLE OF FAITH: it begins with affirmative action
- Young LGBTQ people in religious homes will know that when they feel it’s time to come out or live authentically, that there will be a place for them within our community and if things are not working out well, a safe refuge.
- LGBTQ people who are struggling with faith/sexuality/gender identity conflict will know they are not alone and there is a place for them.
- LGBTQ people of faith will thrive in their lives and relationships in an affirmative/non-adversarial space.
- Over time, the adversarial approach will be deconstructed, allowing us to focus energies on more constructive and positive endeavours.
Comments and feedback welcome.
Sincerely
Anthony Venn-Brown OAM (he/him)
Founder and CEO of Ambassadors & Bridge Builders International (ABBI)
Please add your thoughts and comments below. Thanks
I came out in my 20s (I am 50 next year). I had grown up attending Assemblies of God and at the time of coming out I was connected to an intentional Christian Community in West End Brisbane. That community made it pretty clear that my lifestyle choice was unhealthy. So I disconnected from that community. I too was left wondering whether there would ever be a faith community that could accept me as I am. In the years since I have continued to search for somewhere to belong with fellow Christians as my relationship with Jesus has been my one saving constant through all the turmoil of growing into adulthood. It has only been the last couple of years when I came into contact with Richard Rohr’s online facebook community and daily mediations that I felt fully loved unconditionally and his teachings have given me peace and confidence in whom I am in my sexuality and my faith. I have started attending a little Franciscan parish near my home which has been so grounding in the gospel. I know deep down that I am God’s creation, just as I am.
Hey Anna….it can be challenging for us to find a home after being put outside the city walls. Was the West End church Clarke Taylor’s
No Anthony it is called The Waiters Union. A network of residents on West End. Their leader was Dave Andrew’s back in the day. Don’t know who is there now.
It does not matter how you ‘dress it up’ but I am sorry to say that you cannot be both a Christian and a practicing homosexual at the same time as they are quite frankly contradictory terms. Before your supporters start with the’ hate’ and ‘bigot’ rhetoric you must come to the realization, eventually, that if you are a bible believing Christian, and there are many who are not but use the term ”Christian’ to make the bible say what they what it to say, then you will come to acknowledge that same-sex attracted people are struggling within and without the church and they, as other practicing sinners, need our prayers and support. So in summary, yes you can be a Christian and be struggling with same sex attraction, but you cannot be a Christian and a practicing LGBTIQA+ person just as you cannot be a Christian and a practicing adulterer, thief, practicing incest, worshipping of false gods, and dare I say having sex with animals etc. If you believe otherwise then you are reading a different bible to me.
Blessings and you are in my prayers.
Hi Greg,
After 55 years of life, and my experience of accepting Christ into my life and allowing his healing powers into my life, I did things that I never thought would be possible. He transported me back to my early 5 year old boy and told me to hug that little boy who I hated… and when I did… I felt washed and clean, and my journey with God started from that space of healing. I have always known that I was attracted to the same sex since I was really young and that I didn’t fit into the heterosexual model. The doctrine of “Christianity” is not of Jesus nor God. From the day I realise that I was Gay, I fought against it… I begged and prayed so hard that I would be straight… but nothing happened. You get to the point that you start to think that maybe God likes to make people suffer and so forth… and I started to rebel against God because he didn’t do that I ask him to do for me. I think it all came to head when one day I decided that God really didn’t love me and that while I was driving home I was going to drive into a tree. I felt God reached through to me and what I experienced will never ever leave me… my actions and thoughts were not honouring God, in fact I was acting like a spoilt little brat, a disrespectful, insolent little shit towards God. Then I realised that my suffering was “man made” i.e. from people like you Greg. I felt God anger rise as I realised that I totally ignored God while I allowed people like you Greg dictate what I can and can not do that I forgot to listen to God, I forgot to take my prayers to Him who cared so much about me that he sent his son to die in my place so that I can have everlasting hope.
So Greg, its people like you that we approach and hope to have that dialogue not to change your opinion or thoughts but to challenge you to really look at this issue closely and have an open mind and heart. Most of us grew up within the Religion from families and some of us came into the Church by conviction but ultimately its people like you Greg that shown us the door and kicked us out, and then locked the door so we became homeless.
At 19 I gave my life to Christ and the things that He did through me was incredible, I have seen and experienced things way beyond my scope of understanding and all I can say is that Jesus is a lot different than the traditional churches.
See Greg, its you that need to get our of your comfort zone and stop hurting people like us and be as Jesus would be all through his teaching and examples. I admire Jesus because he just and he never ever put people down, he went up against a lot of people in his time, he did things, he healed people all over, even the Roman centurion’s boyfriend (partner) where he asked Jesus to heal him and Jesus said that he will go to him and he asked Jesus just say the word and he impressed Jesus so much that he was amazed with his faith.
So yeah Greg. Thank you for saying what the bible says but you know what, how do you really know that you interpreted it correctly, how do you know? Just ask Holy Spirit but guess what, you have to be contrite and humble and repent from your ways to allow the Holy Spirt to reside and provide you with the lessons you need. All you need to do is thin of the very two things that Jesus says that you need to do and if you are not doing it, then you can’t be a follower of Christ.
Have a wonderful day brother, from a Brother who is in Christ and just happens to be Gay too, oh and Deaf, and ADHD and with PSTD (the PSTD was a gift from people like you who continually traumatised me over the years as I witness people breaking down when they realised that they were Gay and conflicted from being a Christian and Gay, and also experienced their loss as they took their lives when they couldn’t be heterosexual and that’s on you Greg what I called blood on your hands and before God you will need to account for all your crimes against us).
I think this is why we do need a dialogue to prevent others from doing what you do without a conscience, I mean how do you sleep and not wrestle with a conscience that tells you that you are wrong. I’m ok as a follower of Jesus and I see people like you all the time, but this is slowly changing as most of people like you are finding that more and more people are coming out are actually their child, their Neice and nephew, a friends child etc etc… and they realise that the untruths is unravelling and showing its true strengths. In the end Greg, you are accountable to your own actions and you only have to think… is this what Jesus would do? I think you know in your hearts of heart that you know the answer to that question. That is what guides me. What would Jesus do? Often Jesus would do the opposite to what I think and I reason… so this is a challenge to you from a person who has develop thick skin and whom God has chosen me and set me aside to continually minister in the way that I know how and be a light unto people like you.
Read over your words again Greg and ask God or think what would Jesus say to you… be prepared to be contradicted if you have a heart that is humble and willing to listen. But I think you already know but in denial.
May the love of God wash over you and continue to bless you and care for you, may He always give you warmth and love around you as you walk, may you always feel his presence and be reminded of the beauty and continue build your trust in God in all that you do.
Craig.
I don’t think I’ve ever commented on your articles before, although I receive your emails and first read your book many years ago. But you asked for comments, so here we are! It’s a hard path to follow. I don’t follow the same path as you. I am an active participant in an evangelical Anglican church. I am LGBTQ. I am a health practitioner, who strives to “do no harm”. I agree that there needs to be a safe space for people, and for dialogue. Although I don’t have the answers, I see and honour the other people who have walked this way.
What you wrote is really true of the circumstances and the anti- religion because of the persecution and attitudes of those in positions.
We have been indoctrinated that God hates gay and that we dont have a place so we basically “homeless” and wandering around looking for a place. Some of us accept sitting under the table and getting crumbs because that’s all we can get, others just left because we know we deserve better.
I found the mindset of the non gay members of the Christian community very offensive and confronting, in that they want to know what we do behind doors which kind of a very judgemental and if they’re asking they obviously know but they don’t realise that its an intrinsic lovemaking practice that consolidate relationship and its a beautiful things to have and you don’t talk about it apart from those who are genuine and needs to know so they be safe in their sexual practices.
I am somewhat a person that just get on with life and not bother with religion settings, and I focus on my spirituality as a sole practitioner even though the bible talks about fellowship, you only need one person to spoil it as there is always someone who has a thing about Gay people and I don’t have to prove anything. The bible I read affirms me and I am happy with that… I think the docrination has created a position where we never really feel welcome in the religion field even when they claim they are gay friendly and inclusive… I admit that my relationship with God is ok… I look back and I know that the experience i have had over the years has in fact affected my relationship with God in that he is no longer the centre of my life, God is part of me and I still pray, I still occasionally read the bible. I do miss the fellowship and the lovely safe feeling but that’s all gone. I look at church building and all I can see is the wastage of money on extravagant building and resource that excludes us, and inequality is there. And they are allowed to say anything and not be challenged.
I think i reduce myself to facebook groups that are still out there and I don’t participate as much as I like… work and life gets in the way. I don’t have a community of people who are accepting and caring enough towards me and I envision my life as lonely and retired, as I get old and my partner goes before me, I will become sediment all of all the things I did when I was so young, reminisce the love and care before I knew I was Gay, the struggle to be straight and ultimately paying the price of gay conversion under the banner of “Prayer Counselling” which was “pray the gay away”.
We have had the talk and was rejected so many times, and I was always quick to point out their flaws as human and how that impacts on us so in some ways the treatment they dished out on black people, on aboriginals, on people with disabilities and ultimately on the LGBTIQ+2.
I have a thicker skin and I can take it and just fob it off or I can answer back to make them think twice and in some cases I can pour hot coal on them and get them to come to terms with their attitudes.
I do worry about the younger generation as they do not have the afforded experience that I have that creates a thick skin. I’ve held young people who just cried when their heart were broken, spent time with them, housed them in our house till they felt safe and then venture from there into the world avoiding anything religious, renouncing it and who can blame them. They know I love God and I would do anything for God and that it evident in my approach to people and life, how I treat people and animals, and how I contribute to a safer community but every step I take, the opposition who are usually misinformed Christians make statements or actions that makes them so repulsive that we choose not to associate and continue to live as sole practitioner and avoiding groups incase we are hurt again in the future.
We shouldn’t have to have that conversation or any participation to help “them” change… leave that to the Holy Spirit to convict them on their attitude and if they continue to ignore, its their issue not mine. I always pray that when my time comes that I will spared from watching the judgement because people I care about who are wrong may not get in, and that’s the thing that will break my heart.
Anyway, thank you for asking for feedback.
This would be a good thing to do an online survey and gather unbiased evidence to present to the cohort and basically condemn their actions that Jesus would do if he was here in the flesh. They are accountable to the damage they caused us, the voting no to the same sex marriage was not the only thing, there’s was a lot build up. I nearly defected from Australia to live in Iceland because they did it in 1985 and its not an issue there.
So yeah… the religion will have to really repent from their actions and really get down on the ground and beg for our forgiveness in a massive big way.
Reading your post Craig made my heart sing. Thank you for reminding me to just leave it to the Holy Spirit to convict attitudes that cause such harm. I am so sorry for the obvious harm that others have inflicted on you and so amazed that you have continued to love in spite of it all. God bless you and keep you.
It is my belief that your article is right on point. I am a gay male and ordained minister, so I say to those opposing this as homosexuality and being Christian are contradictory, they simply have not studied thoroughly.
No one debating scripture can ever win their case some scriptures are contradictory, as well, we have to look at the historical background of when our scriptures were written. There is also the issue of multiple translations and rewriting of scripture as well personal interpretation.
Again, I find the article to be sound and in concurrence with my beliefs.
I so agree with this article. It has been my experience too. First I tackled the discrimination in the church then when I came out, I had to leave my church but I kept my faith as the inner conflict had been resolved, then I found that some in gay community attacked me for keeping my faith. Where’s the love and acceptance in that. Do I have to reject my faith to be queer? Both identities are a fundamental part of who I am and equally important to me.
Anthony it is interesting that you should write this article just at this time. I am in the process of trying to establish a safer place within my church for those who want to ‘come out’. Those I have spoken to in leadership are convinced that all nay sayers have left our church after a very explosive time about homosexuality, and that anyone who remains is welcoming. But the welcoming has limitations – no leadership roles, no same sex marriage etc. And I suspect their vocabulary is and would be hurtful to anyone risking exposure because they still believe that healing is available and should be sought..
I have had an idea to compose a questionnaire to be given out to church members simply to gauge the atmosphere in the church today. I felt this could give us all a good insight into whether we are in fact a safe place for these vulnerable people to be.
I am saddened by the earlier comment from Greg. Obviously we do serve a different God! My God loves all people regardless of anything they may have done. ‘For God so loved the world!!!’ There is no fine print that says ‘this excludes all murderers and homosexuals.’ He loves us all and His greatest desire is that we love Him and our neighbour as ourselves. Love doesn’t speak like Greg does, but God still loves Greg.
Dear Anthony,
Once again, you provide a sacred safe space to grapple with the LGBTQIA+ community, faith and religion. My own story is not unique. I will leave that for another comment.
I thought of you and your work a few day’s ago. I was in a workshop with other people of faith and religious leaders. I have come to the point in life (65 years), that I need’t prove or defend being a spiritual leader who is queer. My desire has been to put the face of humanity to our community for those who are sincerely grappling with the conundrum of faith/spirituality/Christianity/Judaism/Muslim, etc. and being queer.
After our time together, one pastor mentioned that after meeting me, he is more open to leaning into understanding who we are. He has been turned off by other LGBTQIA+ folk. However, I am the first queer clergy he’s met whom he was wiling to open himself up to a different way at looking at our community. and the tension of the interpretation of “clobber versus”, and connecting the human condition we all experience.
He is not the first to become curious after spending time with me. A question was asked-what is the difference between this person and others. The reply-she doesn’t use her sexual identity or orientation to weaponize.
Someone else commented-she’s a bridge builder. So, dear Anthony, I don’t have the answers. From this American bridge builder to my Australian sibling bridge builder over the seas, we keep up the sacred work.
Better to build a bridge of love rather than a wall of hate.
Dear Anthony,
Once again, you provide a sacred safe space to grapple with the LGBTQIA+ community, faith and religion. My own story is not unique. I will leave that for another comment.
I thought of you and your work a few day’s ago. I was in a workshop with other people of faith and religious leaders. I have come to the point in life (65 years), that I need’t prove or defend being a spiritual leader who is queer. My desire has been to put the face of humanity to our community for those who are sincerely grappling with the conundrum of faith/spirituality/Christianity/Judaism/Muslim, etc. and being queer.
After our time together, one pastor mentioned that after meeting me, he is more open to leaning into understanding who we are. He has been turned off by other LGBTQIA+ folk. However, I am the first queer clergy he’s met whom he was wiling to open himself up to a different way at looking at our community. and the tension of the interpretation of “clobber versus”, and connecting the human condition we all experience.
He is not the first to become curious after spending time with me. A question was asked-what is the difference between this person and others. The reply-she doesn’t use her sexual identity or orientation to weaponize.
Someone else commented-she’s a bridge builder. So, dear Anthony, I don’t have the answers. From this American bridge builder to my Australian sibling bridge builder over the seas, we keep up the sacred work.
Better to build a bridge of love rather than a wall of hate.
Dear Anthony,
I agree with your proposition that the solution lies (at least in part) in ‘creating visibility and a place at the table for LGBTQ people of faith. However, a word of caution and that is that we must avoid tokenism.
Any person who is a member or attender at a church, who is on a committee, attends a Bible study, is in a choir, helps with community outreach activities or speaks in a public forum is first and foremost a human being, beloved of God and created in God’s image. It is less important what nationality, sexuality, gender, ethnicity, age or profession a person has or is. These things are important in as much as they are an expression of the individual’s identity, but first and foremost they are a person following the way of Christ to the best of their ability (or maybe simply stumbling along in that general direction).
In our chuch (the Uniting Church in Australia) we have a call to participate in communion that goes, “This is an open table. If you love the Lord and would love the Lord more, them come, your place is at the table.” It is a profound statement about Jesus’ table where everyone is welcome. I think statements such as this are important and reflect the true nature of the one who included all.
Our actions must bear out our statements and it is important that our councils work to keep one another accountable and diligent in our inclusiveness and our diversity.
My heart aches for those who are caught in the false dicotomy of ‘faith’ or ‘sexual purity’.
The ‘purity police’ are not doing anyone any favours when it comes to spreading the good news of God’s love for all.
Yes, look for positive stories about inclusivity and healthy diversity in the life of the church.
But please be careful not to shine a light on someone’s private issues and personal struggles without their un-pressured willingness. We should be shining the light on that person’s and that community’s faithfulness to following Jesus, the Christ.
That is where the heart of our identity is to be found. That is where our unity is to be found.
Thank you for the work you are doing, my friend.
Grace and Peace to you in all things.
The best is yet to come.
The way I see it is this – the only way traditional understandings of Scripture get changed for the better is by the church finally SEEING what God accepts and is blessing.
How did the church know God did not require circumcision for the gentiles, despite 2000 years of Him asking it of the Jews? By the church SEEING how God was acting in their time! (Acts 15)
How did the modern church’s rigid restrictions on marriage and divorce, supposedly based on Scripture, get softened? By SEEING that God does indeed accept and bless divorced and remarried peoples’ lives and ministries.
How do we know those verses which seem to relegate women to silence in the company of men were local edicts and do not reflect God’s universal decree? By SEEING how God acts. From Hildegard of Bingen in the 12th Century to Catherine Booth of the Salvos and scores of others, God has clearly shown he insists on no such restriction.
And so, I believe, it will be with the acceptance of gay people in the wider church.
——
I am absolutely convinced the Scriptures have NO restriction on gay love and indeed, don’t even mention it.
But traditional ways of reading some passages and mistranslations in others have clouded the issue, and whereas better understandings are not hard to find for someone who is serious about what the Scripture is saying, it is hard for many to be brave enough to dare risk thinking so radically.
Am I (and other like-minded people) right?
Or am I wrong?
There’s only one way to find out, I’m afraid.
It will be for Christian gay people to get on with their ministry, come what may.
To let the rest of the church SEE how God is blessing them.
Like in Acts 15.
Women have had to take the scorn of traditionalists to do their God-ordained work.
Non-white people have had to endure all sorts of scorn for daring to behave like equals before God.
So it has to be, I believe, for the Christian gay community.
Ask God for protection and blessing and get on with it.
Quietly, humbly, stubbornly.
(And since gay marriage is now legitimate in Australia, the ‘no sex outside marriage’ standard for Christians is a non issue.)
Of course, there will always be the hard core who will not budge – on gay issues, woman, divorce, etc – just like there were Jewish Christians who never accepted Paul’s teaching to the gentiles. There will always be Pharisees.
But hasn’t it always been that way? For any minority?
God bless our gay brothers and sisters.
“The ONLY thing that counts is Faith expressing itself through love!” (Paul from Galatians 5:6)
———
A Post Script:
I believe that most young people, far more than people my age, know and accept that gay people are simply human, and accept that same-sex attraction is not a choice or a sin. Gay or straight, we want relationships. Gay or straight, we are loved by God. I believe more and more the traditional understandings of pertinent Scripture will be re-examined (not ignored) by younger Christians – gay and straight – and God’s heart will be seen more clearly. It’s happened before – it will happen again. So I think the future for gay Christians is secure in the hands of the young.
thanks Shane for such and intellegent and thoughtful response
If only the Orthodox Church would have this conversation with open minds!!
most certainly. I agree
I would like to understand what it means to an LGBTQI+ person who sees themself as a person of faith. Faith in Father, Son & Spirit. If someone is willing to share, could I hear how they have experienced a pesronal encounter with Christ & what is their experience of the Holy Spirit? Also what spiritual disciplines have become the basis of their continual formation into Christlikeness. I am a follower of Jesus & in a heterosexual marriage.
Hi Peter
I definitely see myself as a person of faith. More specifically, a person whose faith is in Jesus.
I think that living a life with Jesus means continual encounters … continual conversations, continually being guided and led by the Spirit – conviction of sin, awareness of the presence of God every single day, reminders of the deep, faithful and unwavering love of God to me and for me and with me and through me.
I personally experience a deep intimacy with God when I worship, when I am silent, when I journal, when I am aware of creation, and when I am connecting with other people.
Although I understand what you mean by spiritual disciplines, for me it is not about that, as that tends to become dogmatic and legalistic – which in my experience leads to guilt and shame (not living up to expectations I set for myself to be a “good” Christian by attaining certain things and hitting goals, which feeds back into a loop of not being “enough”, which is a lie God never wants us to believe). So for me, it is about attempting to live with an awareness of the presence of God always. Being open handed and open hearted and what I believe that I know, and being aware that God is “here”, and intentionally remembering that this is possible because of Jesus.
I hope that helps 🙂
Hi Anthony,
Here in one of the most “conservative” areas of a very “conservative” state of Arizona, we are blessed to have a number of faith organizations bridging a variety of faiths where people on the LGBTQ+ spectrum can find safe places to practice both their faith and their orientation. We have a non-profit which draws from the entire community dedicated to assisting in finding and developing those safe places.
The antipathy toward faith is a well earned antipathy which is being slowly changed as more ‘faith based organizations start implementing the “law of love” and walk back the unloving rejection. It is a slow, tedious process but worth the pursuing.
Yes John…..the things that take time to build are well worth the effort and are more sustainable.
These days my faith is in a place where it is not affected by what religious leaders or even what a literal interpretation of the bible says about sexuality or a whole bunch of other things. Rules are a poor substitute for a commitment to consent, respect and autonomy. However a bridge between the worlds of the faith I was raised with and a more expansive view of love and sexuality than the one my family and the church taught me would have made a huge difference to me as a teen and young adult. As opposed to stumbling obliviously into a highly unsuitable and psychologically abusive marriage for nearly two decades. For those who criticise this sort of work on the basis that they believe Christianity or some other religion’s entire basket of eggs is rotten, how many closeted religious young people have you helped to walk the path to a freer life? Some of whom are so afraid they can’t even admit who they are to themselves. Does automatically bashing various religions get the results you are hoping for? People need a bridge to get from where they are to who they are becoming. If the chasm is too big to jump, the path is going to be very long and winding. Whether that is their faith journey, their sexuality and gender journey or some other thing.